Several Bugs in Version 1.3.2


#1

I completed a playthrough today. I encountered a few bugs, and a few things I deem problems with the design.

This was played on Windows XP with Service Pack 3 (and other current patches).

Bugs:

  • Exiting the editor and continuing to play often causes extreme slowdown, and sometimes crashes. It’s speedy and stable when entering, and actually inside, the editor. The problem is observable while exiting, and the slowdown appears to be reliable though the crashing is not.

  • Dieing in the level “Bombing Fools” causes me to respawn in the level “Darkness Central”.

  • Dieing while delivering the final blow to Milgram causes something strange to happen. Frogatto turns glowing white with a blue tinge. Part of the ending conversation plays. Then you respawn in the area just outside Milgram’s room. The in-game controls no longer respond, but the Escape menu works. Using the Escape menu to return to the main menu leaves you with a main menu that doesn’t work. Restarting the game fixes this, of course.

Design Problems:

  • There should be a hint around invisible paths. It could be audio (wind sound?) and/or video (cracks, as in the original Zelda?), but there needs to be one. Expecting people to grind against every wall, and jump into every bramble pit, in the hopes that there’s a invisible path, isn’t very reasonable.

  • There should be a visible hint around bottomless pits. I frequently have to make leaps of faith to reach parts of a level. I can’t tell the difference between there being a screen below me, and nothing at all. I suggest rendering the bottom edge of the map with a visible marker (a strip of spikes, or skull and crossbones, or a slow ‘beating’ red flash?), and making sure this is visible from where the character stands on a 768 pixel tall screen.

  • Coins and golden fruit could use more sparkles. Sometimes silver coins are hard to spot in gray backgrounds. Golden fruit are frequently very hard to spot, because tree leaves are often rendered over them (I think this is a bad decision) so only their sparkles show through. They’re especially hard to see in the amber-colored trees.

Other ‘Issues’ That Aren’t Bugs:

This stuff may be my own ignorance or just a matter of taste, but I feel the need to share it.

  • If there’s a way to view the achievements you have, and the ones you don’t yet have (and how to get them), I have yet to figure it out. This should be made more clear.

  • The game is very short. What there is of it is wonderful. The controls are perfectly tight. The graphics are gorgeous. The music is great. There just needs to be more of it, especially for $10. Most other $10 games are quite a bit longer.

  • Consider a different save system. I’d rather not have to replay long stretches just because I needed to close the game. The current system forces me to do that since the save points are far apart. The respawn points are usually sanely placed, but they don’t save to disk. They could save to disk, but there are times I would have liked to ‘rewind’ (e.g. the room right before Milgram’s, where if I miss a coin I can’t go back to the start of the room given the way the room must be traversed (you can’t go ‘the other way’)). Personally, I’d like all the respawn points to be made save points, with a more traditional PC save system, where I can save/load as many files as I please, and am asked if I want to overwrite them.

A Personal Note:

This is intended as constructive criticism. I quite like the game, and don’t regret purchasing it. A list of bugs and other problems is necessarily purely negative. For examples of things I particularly liked: the forest levels (everything), the sky in the dungeon levels (orange moon, and purple and red sky), the music in Milgram’s room, and the amazing engine and editor.


#2

"* Dieing in the level “Bombing Fools” causes me to respawn in the level “Darkness Central”."
We indeed had a checkpoint that was placed a bit too far left, which meant that the player is spawned to the right of it when starting the level - thus, it’s never crossed.

"Consider a different save system.[…]"
That’s reasonable… The fact that we’ve had these charming save toilets for so long has made it seem a bit easier to ignore the fact that it’s not a perfect system. Can’t ignore that forever, though!


#3

Hey there – thanks for your feedback, we appreciate it.

I think that the saving system itself is probably fine, but more frequent toilets would help. As a little secret, you can save anywhere by pressing “ctrl+s”. I’m not sure if we should expose that more, though.

We can’t immediately reproduce your editor problem, will keep looking for it though.

David


#4
If there's a way to view the achievements you have, and the ones you don't yet have (and how to get them), I have yet to figure it out. This should be made more clear.

There’s no way to view them; largely for the same reason that there’s no inventory screen or player info screen. I’d love to have it, we just haven’t gotten around to it. :frowning: We’re strongly hoping to fix that down the road; not sure quite when, though. 1.4 or 1.5.

* The game is very short. What there is of it is wonderful. The controls are perfectly tight. The graphics are gorgeous. The music is great. There just needs to be more of it, especially for $10. Most other $10 games are quite a bit longer.

This is really our primary goal going forward. We added a whole mess of levels in 1.3, and now we’re gonna add another mess of levels in 1.4. It’ll be a few updates, but I figure we shouldn’t take too long to reach a point where we’re “up to par” with the level of content expected for a “real” game (Zelda: LttP, or Kirby’s Dreamland being our base to compare against).

* Consider a different save system. [b]I'd rather not have to replay long stretches just because I needed to close the game.[/b] The current system forces me to do that since the save points are far apart. The respawn points are usually sanely placed, but they don't save to disk. They could save to disk, but there are times I would have liked to 'rewind' (e.g. the room right before Milgram's, where if I miss a coin I can't go back to the start of the room given the way the room must be traversed (you can't go 'the other way')). Personally, I'd like all the respawn points to be made save points, with a more traditional PC save system, where I can save/load as many files as I please, and am asked if I want to overwrite them.

Emphasis there might point to the best solution; our save system seems to work well enough when you’ve plenty of time, but it falls down precisely in the situation where “I have to run, NOW”, and you have to quickly exit the program and don’t have time to find a save toilet.

It might make sense to have a sort of “autosave” on exit which doesn’t clobber the most recent save (and is in effect slotless, and not displayed). Since you can return to the titlescreen from anywhere by just popping that dialogue box up, it therefore might be suitable to just reload it when the game launches, automatically.


#5

Thank you for replying, and being understanding.

As for issues reproducing the editor problem, I’m not sure this helps, but the only other relevant information I can think of is I’m running it on 32-bit Windows XP, not 64-bit. I don’t believe anything else would influence it. I realize my system is somewhat old, but it may be worth fixing should it turn out to be something like a multithreading issue that’s frequent on this setup but infrequent on more popular ones.

So far everything has gotten some reaction except:

  • dieing while defeating Milgram - which is possible if you chuck the blockheads (my name for them) at him from a distance, so you can jump into one of his projectiles while the blockhead is in mid air; you will die when touching the projectile, and he will be defeated shortly after when the blockhead hits him; I did this on accident, of course
  • Design Problems section - nobody agrees these are real issues?

As for the save system, being able to save to a special ‘restore me when starting up’ slot solves the “I want to close the game, but I don’t want to have to replay a lot” problem, but does not solve the “I want to rewind” problem. Also, I see no value in having respawn points being more frequent than save points. Is a traditional PC game save system really so bad that we must engineer a new solution? I’ve never had any problem with them. I rather like them myself.

I have also noticed another problem, though it may be more my ignorance than a bug. If I go into the editor, as I sometimes do to try to determine if something is a bottomless pit, or if I’ve seen all of the level, and exit, I appear to lose ‘hearts’, as in, my maximum potential hit points goes down. This does not appear to be reliable (I have been trying to reproduce it now), and I’m not sure what causes it. It only happens rarely.

I know we may not agree on what the problems are, but thanks for listening to me.


#6

[quote=“Coaldust, post:5, topic:359”]Thank you for replying, and being understanding.

Design Problems section - nobody agrees these are real issues?[/quote]
Don’t think too deeply into it - we’re going to look at these piecemeal if we haven’t commented on them yet.


#7

Those are very real problems. It’s just that you’ve given us a lot of stuff we need to do but don’t really want to – it’ll take a bit to process it all. :wink: The design problems are less pressing than the errors, so we’ll look at them later.

Status:
We do have a little skull-and-crossbones particle effect for deep chasms. However, it’s not really implemented anywhere yet – other things have been more pressing. Agreed, though, that it would be a very nice thing to have.
Secret areas are, indeed, too secret imo. They could stand to have a subtle effect on them, like a dark fringe, to give you a hint. I’m in the credits, and I don’t know where most of them are. :expressionless:
We could possibly recolour the coins based on the environment they’re in. Say, for the gold forest, make the gold coins a bit darker or something. I’ll leave that call up to Jetrel.

Again, thanks for the feedback. :slight_smile:


#8

I have some grasp of how much work it would probably be to do some of these things. I’m not trying to make life hard on you.

Ways I’ve seen other games solve the hard to see coin problem include making a large gleaming ‘flash’ slowly pass over the coins, rotating them, and having a dark outline. The late Super Mario Brothers games (3, World, probably more) used the first and last methods. Sonic the Hedgehog used the second one for its rings. I /think/ it would suffice without having to make the color adaptive. Perhaps fancying-up the animation would be easier than coding?

I’m not particularly attached to this solution. I’d find it acceptable, but I would also find the adaptive color one to be so.


#9

The particle effect is ready to go and we just need to … add it. I ought to start work on that tonight or tomorrow; something I can do some of, and we can farm some out to marcavis and DDR, maybe.

As for the coins, that might be an excellent use-case for our new ability to do shader effects.


#10

I’ve found a way to reproduce the heart loss problem:

  1. lose some hit points (make the hearts empty)
  2. press Ctrl-E to enter the editor
  3. walk between levels or press Ctrl-E again

You will lose any empty hearts permanently. This appears to be reliable, if you use the above method.

This can be fixed by not saving, going back to the main menu via the Escape menu, and reloading from your last good save, or just restarting the game.

Sadly, I have no idea what causes the reliable slowdown or rare crashing (of Frogatto only, the computer itself is quite stable) when I go in and out of the editor on my computer. I suspect it has something to do with cleanup code that’s triggered when leaving the editor, or multithreading. I’m surprised others don’t have the same problem.

Should it be any help, if you walk to another level, or use the Escape menu to go back to the main menu, the slowdown stops. Normally it persists for a very long time within the level. Maybe that narrows down where the problem could lie.


#11

We have to consider that there is a difference between respawning and loading a save - if you respawn, all the enemies in the level are back. If you load a save, the enemies you killed stay dead, unless you die or leave the level. So, if you could save anywhere, this would make the game less challenging.

Having a few more save points is a good idea though. Maybe the little outhouses could trigger a save menu where you can choose a file, rather than having a fixed save slot?


#12

[quote=“Coaldust, post:10, topic:359”]I’ve found a way to reproduce the heart loss problem:

  1. lose some hit points (make the hearts empty)
  2. press Ctrl-E to enter the editor
  3. walk between levels or press Ctrl-E again

You will lose any empty hearts permanently. This appears to be reliable, if you use the above method.

This can be fixed by not saving, going back to the main menu via the Escape menu, and reloading from your last good save, or just restarting the game.[/quote]

There’s a big difference in assumptions here; the editor doesn’t actually try to save the player character (and the gameplay data it encompasses) because the editor isn’t meant to be something you experiment with while in the middle of playing the story.
Whether that’s an assumption that could use some rethinking, since using the editor as you go along is so relatively convenient (when compared to most other games), I… don’t know. That would possibly entail us having to care about the breakage that arises from someone messing the campaign up.


#13

Having the outhouses bring up a traditional PC save menu would be an improvement, especially if they were more frequently encountered.

Personally, the way I’d design it would be:

  • you can save at any time
  • the game would, if space was available, automatically create a new save upon passing a respawn point (or at least changing levels), though this could be turned off if you found it to be creating too many saves; this avoids the the need to remember to save
  • when you save/load you use a traditional PC game save system (i.e. make new save, overwrite existing, delete existing, saves sorted by date with latest first, confirmation on overwrite and delete, no limit other than disk space on number of saves, and save list is scrollable with a visual indicator (e.g. arrows or scroll bar) when some saves are offscreen)
  • when you load a save you find yourself at the respawn point you most recently passed before saving

Several games use similar systems (e.g. Dishonored, Skyrim).

Should this be deemed to make the game too easy, then reloading from a save could have some or all of the same effects as dieing and respawning (e.g. enemies respawning).

In my design there would be no outhouses. The save points would be invisible.

I admit I had not noticed loading from a save didn’t cause enemy respawning. I think this is because death is rather frequent, and walking back and forth between levels causes enemy respawning, so this is a insignificant benefit, in my opinion. I would still prefer respawn points be the same as save points.

As for the editor, I do find the existing behavior unintuitive. My expectation was that so long as I ‘look, but don’t touch’ nothing would break. That seems to be a reasonable expectation to me. I do /not/ expect it to try to keep the game running if I, say, mangle the shader code. That would be unreasonable.

My reason for using it while playing was being able to ‘look around’ to reduce the amount of deaths due to bottomless pits and to try to make sure I hadn’t missed any coins.

I missed some anyway, since there were a few I couldn’t figure out how to reach without cheating, and there’s that one room before Milgram that I didn’t realize I couldn’t go back to the start of easily until it was too late.

I know my opinions may not be shared, but thanks for hearing me out anyway.


#14

As for the editor, maybe a message “Entering the editor may cause you to loose some, or all, of your game progress. Do you want to continue? [Yes/No/Do not show this again]”…


#15

Yeah, I’d sort of prefer a save-anywhere system myself. You can cheat and hit ctrl-s to do so at the moment, at least, on PC. Having set save points is old, but … game-y. :slight_smile: